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June 28, 2005

Master2的论文答辩

去听比我大一个年级（master2)师兄师姐的论文答辩。

  • 第一印象是他们好老。
    有师兄秃了头的，有白了发的，有拄拐杖的，有师姐黄了脸的，也有一些我这个年纪的同学。我想，那些年纪比较大的师兄师姐曾经也是这里毕业的，并且参加工作了，我想他们是matrise(bac+4)毕业，由于法国学位体系的改革（LMD化），他们又回来充电，拿个master(bac+5)。

  • 第二个印象是，我觉得他们大都是做数学的。
    虽然他们中很多人的课题是医学方向上的，但实质上只是数学（特别是统计学）在某个特定医学问题上的应用，他们讨论的是不同的数学模型的差异，而在医学机理（比如病理学）上的讨论很少很少，又如将数学应用到生物学问题上的课题，他们研究的仍然是模型，参数等，没有抓住生物学本质讨论。只有对于数据的分析，没有本质的，机理的，分析。但是在我看来，做生物学研究的终究是要研究生命的本质。现在生物信息学领域很热，因为是交叉学科，所以学数学的人可以转过来，学计算机的，学化学的，学物理的都可以转到这个领域来。但是，我觉得，从生物以外背景过来的人大多进行生物信息学方法的探索，而生命规律的研究仍然需要一定的生物学修养。

Posted by 西瓜 at June 28, 2005 09:44 PM

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Comments

确实是一个很怪的现象。我不喜欢听一个数学家跟我解释生命。但是在科学发展来看这种情况不可避免。因为生物信息很热。

Posted by: 傗の寳貝 at June 30, 2005 10:29 AM

西瓜 是否可以考虑从模拟这个角度出发？模拟的基础是模型和生物学机理（通过数据来表现）。（可能你是从遗传学角度来考虑的，我因为现在是在作物学科，所以基本从生长、生理这块出发，但其实两者相对“数学”来说都是比较的遥远的）
前段日子做的实验就是为了做大豆生长模拟搜集的，也查了些文献，但是涉及到模型推导分析的我就做不下去了……
感觉作物模拟模型大体是以一种描述性的数学模型来表达作物的生长过程，模型中的参数涉及到各种生态因子和植物生理指标，……但是可惜的是懂生物的看到模型就头大，懂数学的不明白那些关于植物生理生态、环境影响的机理……所以，至少国内，作物生长模型这块没有质的突破，都是引入美国和荷兰几个经典模型，然后改一两个参数……没有原创的模型

Posted by: vangao_hjc at June 30, 2005 04:35 PM

整理下思路，提些问题：
首先最本源的是碱基，通过排序配对组成了密码子……然后有基因，这些过程可以用生物统计及模型来较好地描述，但是这显然不是最终的目的，我们为什么要研究这些遗传物质？是为了与其各种生理现象联系起来，那么怎么联系起来？从简单的碱基到生物表现出来的各种现象，如何将其描述出来？怎样把时空这样的环境因素恰当地结合到其中？（虽然物理学中任何一条定律的提出都会有这样一个前提：在理想状态下……但是在生命科学界，人们似乎总是习惯于把外界环境作为一个被讨论的内容，而非忽略不计），所以，如何把内因和外因进行结合，合理的解释不同时空条件下生命的特异生理反应？似乎只有数学模型了啊～
感慨下：
科学总是在用漂亮的数学符号来表述时才显得特别有说服力（语言不是最华丽的艺术，最艺术的是数学啊），当然这是戏言，因为数学公式最大的优点就是通用性和严谨性，该是就是、该不是就不是，所有的主观因素只存在于公式得出之前。但实际上公式本身的得出就是主观的，所以……，没必要深究其本质了。
公式好用，所以大家都奔着它去了。

Posted by: vangao_hjc at June 30, 2005 05:04 PM

to vangao:
从模拟说起，就我想象，作物生长模拟是否是指，首先在物质层面，包括植物如何利用光能将无机物转化为有机物，还有一系列的其他物质的代谢过程，其次是在形态层面的，包括植物种子的萌发，植株的伸长，发育，开花结果，直至死亡。
那么我想这个模型太复杂，参数涉及温度，阳光，湿度，土壤中各种物质的含量等等，这些参数还不能叫参数，都是动态变化的。我想引进美国的模型也是正常的，人家应该是花了很大代价研究的。

然后你说的，由硷基到基因的过程，“这些过程可以用生物统计及模型来较好地描述”，我不明白这句话，具体指什么？
你讲物理学与生物学的差别，我想起朱军老师大致这么讲过，“生物学是信息堆积的科学”，生物学建立在一个一个已知的细节上，物理学建立在完整的理论体系中，我记不得这是我自己的看法还是朱老师讲的，但是我现在对此抱怀疑态度。生物过程再复杂，他的物质基础是如此简单，DNA储存的信息仅仅只是由ACGT四个碱基来完成。也许，生物学需要的是更多的细节，以及之后的归纳总结。我想生物学规律也可以简洁，漂亮。
你想说的内因外因的结合，通俗说，是否指，把他们放在一个数学公式里。我们可以泛泛地这么说，假设一个结果由几个因素决定，那么我们就说，这个结果等于这些因素的主效应加上因素之间的互作效应之和，这不就是统计学干的事情吗？
统计学给我的感觉是知其然，不知其所以然，就是说我们根据大量的表面现象，总结研究对象应该是怎样的，而我们没法知道为什么是这样。
最艺术的是数学，我很同意这句话。
自然界中很多事物都有着奇妙的数学数据或规律，Charles教授送我的一本书，是研究叶序问题中的数学规律，比如，为何是这样的空间结构的生长（比如轮生）。这样的问题，如果要从生物的本原来解释，我想对于现在的科学知识而言还很遥远吧。所以你的一些观点我很同意。但是我们学地更多，我们的观点也会有所变化。

Posted by: 西瓜 at June 30, 2005 10:32 PM

关于生长模拟这块的内容，bingo～你想象的内容非常完全，唯一一点纰漏是，作物生长模拟是一个系统，里面有若干个子模块，分别由不同的数学模型来描述，比如有专门描述光合作用的模型，有专门描述干物质积累的模型等等……要用一个模型描述整个过程，似乎也是可以的，但是就有些流于形式了，毕竟我们更应该遵循实用主义原则。
至于我说的“这些过程可以用生物统计及模型来较好地描述”，其实是在模型分类中涉及的问题，模型总体而言不是分为两类么？一类是结果模型，而另一类是过程模型，生物统计中常见的回归模型就是典型的结果模型，而作物生长模拟模型则是典型的过程模型（我想说的就只是这个而已）。
关于模拟这块，我基本没有希望再继续深入下去（现在做这方面的实验还是为了论文），主要原因是国内现在研究模拟模型的环境不是很好，这个属于基础性而且很数学的理论，国内虽然总强调学科交叉，但真正交叉成功的少之又少，大家都是单干……结果就是各个都只是一点皮毛，少有闪光的创新出现。（美国最经典的一个棉花模拟模型的推导花了一个专家组10年的时间，其后 又有不断的模型修正和配套专家系统和其他技术的配套应用，那确实发挥了价值；但国内真的做不开这个，真是郁闷啊。——张国平说是因为我国的土地利用状况和方式跟美国不一样，他们那种大块大块的地上没有几个劳动力，所以需要计算机协助，我国土地上的劳动力剩余的厉害，根本不必计算机多事……对了，现在因为朱军老院长去干副校长了，所以是张国平老师分管学院大小事物）

Posted by: vangao_hjc at July 1, 2005 05:04 PM

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